Arguments and Counters

Those who insist fans of the Expanded Universe should ‘get over it’ and just enjoy the new stuff are loud and numerous. Besides the quotes page, here are a few response ideas:

Give it a chance, you haven’t seen it yet.

One can estimate predictions of future performance on past performance. Whatever the success Disney has with other franchises, if I haven’t liked any of their choices so far, its safe bet I won’t like the movie.

1. The immediately cancelled The Clone Wars, in mid production, while it was still popular and only had a season to go. Reasons: it was on a non Disney network. Ego won that round even over profit. Granted they later released the in progress season and continued it. But it still was obvious muscle flexing on their part.

2. They immediately cancelled Dark Horse Comics license, with several very popular stories in mid production. At this point they had not yet cancelled the entire Expanded Universe. Reasons: they owned Marvel and wanted them in control. Ego won again.

3. They cancelled and relabeled the entire Expanded Universe and lied about it. Yes. I said LIED. They claimed it was too contradictory, that there was no room for creative freedom. Reason: Ego. Greed alone can’t account for this decision. This entire site is evidence to how few contradictions it had. As for creative,  it does much as The Clone Wars did:  it takes pre-existing Expanded Universe characters and events to shove into their canon.  Doing this diminishes them as the newcomers have no idea how much better they originally were. Creativity would be to create new interesting characters.

That’s three strikes right there. I have no reason to think their decisions will improve.

Want a fourth: they marketed their sequel trilogy on hate for the prequels.  Basically they insulted George Lucas AND all the fans of those movies.  They’ve finally come around and are now trying to exploit it.  But given they’ve destroyed Luke Skywalker’s character as a positive, never gives up Jedi who even believed in his fallen Father, I have no doubt the destruction of Obi-Wan’s character is up next.

They are using George Lucas for consultation and his basic scripts.

Nope. They were supposed to but threw them out. In a Youtube video where he speaks to a school classroom, one child asked him about racism in Star Wars.  He said there isn’t any in his Star Wars but he’d lost control of it and it went in directions he didn’t intend.  The video was soon marked private but plenty of youtube commentators grabbed a copy to comment on first.  He also emphasized in a Charlie Rose interview that the Star Wars characters were basically sold into ‘white slavery’ because his company had lost money due to his experimental projects.

He would’ve had to let people go if he didn’t sell. And critically this:   the fans lost their stories.   He retracted this later,  likely after some screaming from Disney execs. In any case, he clearly emphasizes he is no longer consulted and they have rejected his ideas.

Contrary to what people think, having millions of dollars doesn’t equate to the money to keep paying thousands of employees and maintaining the buildings and equipment they need.  The money would’ve run out. And those employees he was trying to save, well, Disney axed entire departments including the game divisions as it neared completion on the game 1313.  The game itself was axed.

No one would understand a story based on the Expanded Universe if they hadn’t read it and knew the characters.

No one knew who Vader was the first time he appeared in A New Hope in 1977 either. All they got was an opening scroll saying this is the bad guy, this is the good guy and this is why they are fighting. The prequels were the same. Every movie had gaps between it and the next, and all you got as filler was the short scroll. Yet Vader had appeared already in a novel: the novelization did come out first for all of these movies. The first comic book did too.

No one wants to a story based on books where they already know what happens.

The last book Crucible ends right about where the actors actual ages is. You could put the story there. Besides, we already knew how the prequels ended. We knew Anakin fell to the Dark Side and became Vader. We knew Obi-Wan ended up a desert hermit and Yoda a Dagobah swamp dweller. It was how it happened that kept us glued to our seats. (The exception being those who hated Vader being redeemed and just wanted a rehash of the original trilogy with an already going dark adult Anakin from the start.)

What’s more, plenty of popular books are turned into movies all the time. Harry Potter. The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. Lord of the Rings. The Hunger Games…I could go on. As an aside I’ll point out the first new Narnia movie did great…and it was largely complete when Disney bought the company. The following 2 were of diminishing popularity AFTER Disney bought it and kept altering the script away from the books.

George Lucas himself didn’t care or think of it as Canon.

There are plenty of quotes to suggest this was not true. It wasn’t part of ‘his’ story but he contributed.  He at the very least respected it. You can find more on this in the quotes page.

  • He consulted with James Luceno when he was writing Darth Plagueis to make sure it told the story he wanted told. He had him report directly to head guy Roffman instead of the usual editorial staff.
  • The Dark Horse comics writers sent him a checklist of options to  understand the Jedi better. He told them what the Jedi/Sith could and could not do.
  • He was directly behind Shadows of the Empire, the underworld angle was his idea.
  • He was directly involved with The Force Unleashed project.
  • It was his decision in planning the New Jedi Order books to let them kill a main character and which one.
  • It was his decision that decided which of the 3 children of Han and Leia would be the hero of New Jedi Order, and which would not be used, based on what he thought was too similar to the Prequel story he was telling at the same time.
  • It was his decision to go ahead and retain Coruscant as the capital world in the prequels, as it had already been established in books. He had already designated it a city planet, but Timothy Zahn gave it the name.
  • It was his decision to take the comic book character Aayla Secura and add her into Attack of the Clones
  • He was the one who decided to hire Timothy Zahn on the continuation of the after Return of the Jedi era. Certain elements were denied as they would impact on stories that would be told in the prequels, including making Noghri the actual Sith (as Vader was Lord of the Sith) and C’baoth’s clone which would originally have been a clone of Obi-Wan.
  • He actually suggested Terry Brooks include Expanded Universe material such as from Tales of the Jedi in the novelization of the Phantom Menace.

The Canon was too complicated. The new one is simpler because it’s all equal. We are starting fresh so its easier to keep up with.

It’s already begun contradicting itself.

-A Lucasfilm representative confirmed to GameSpot that future game releases will also be canonical…This includes DICE’s Battlefront.
Star Wars: Battlefront Canon Is ‘Complicated’ is the title of the IGN article. It doesn’t have a campaign, therefore it’s limited in how it can be part of the story.

So instead they are writing a novel called Battlefront. And how is that not confusing?

-Sabine Wren as a Mandalorian. While most of the old expanded universe says anyone who is willing to adopt their creed can be a Mandalorian, The Clone Wars (which they claim is now canon and the rest, not) showed them as primarily blond, pale humans, with very few exceptions like Death Watch. Okay…Sabine is not blond apparently nor pale. She really doesn’t quite fit in either canon. She doesn’t act like a Mando of the EU (which is not canon in her universe) nor look like one in the Disney canon.

And then there are the movie issues that the Expanded Universe had explained but now they’ve tossed out the explanations:

– Palpatine says the Republic is 1000 years old in Attack of the Clones. Obi-Wan says the Jedi have served the Republic for 1000 generations (by definition a generation is about 30 years) in A New Hope.

– It took around 18 years (Luke’s lifetime) to complete the first Death Star but apparently only 2 or 3 for the second.

– Yoda. Obi-Wan claims Yoda was the Jedi Master that instructed him in The Empire Strikes Back. In the Phantom Menace you see it is Qui-Gon. You might guess from the prequel movies but nothing is said, The EU books are what point out that Yoda trained them ALL as youngsters.

The point here has nothing whether it was an enjoyable story or a dud. The point is they claimed they killed the EU for a single (more) consistent canon…and they are contradicting themselves within the first year.

The whole point of renaming the stories ‘Legends’ to avoid confusion is a lie, given that they are literally taking the same names and reusing them for different aspects.

  •  A movie based on stealing the Death Star plans. Not original, given it was already done by Kyle Katarn and told in both video game and novella. In addition, Rebels on Toprawa, including Bria Tharen (Han’s Ex Girlfriend) were involved. It’s been told from many angles.
  • Title of the movie to steal Death Star plans: Rogue One. Rogue One happens to be known in the EU as ‘Rogue Leader’ usually. So they are outright taking a call sign of one of the most popular storylines post Return of the Jedi.
  •  Marvel’s Shattered Empire: Post Return of the Jedi Rebel pilots deal with the aftermath of a splintered Empire….wait. Isn’t that the story of the X-Wing comics? It is.
  • Aftermath: the excerpt already shared involves the toppling of the Emperor’s statue and retaliation by the Imperial troops. Except that has already been there, done that, with pretty much the same reaction in the Expanded Universe. This time in the X-Wing novels.
  • Kylo Ren. apparent villain in the Force Awakens…that name sounds familiar. Oh, wait, it sounds like a relative of Kybo Ren, a pirate from the Droids cartoon! Oh and that Snoke guy?  He’s from those kids books, that start with Glove of Darth Vader.
  • Marvel comics and Han Solo’s wife. Whatever their intent, it’s doubtful that a dark skinned woman claiming to be his wife doesn’t spring from Dark Horse Comics Salla Zend, who in the Han Solo trilogy wanted to be his wife. Their attitude also bears resemblance.
  • Tales of the Jedi almost certainly will not be based on the comic stories we know and love, and if it is, they’ll be yanking them into their canon and destroying them.
  • Thrawn apparently came back, only he wasn’t the same Thrawn.  While Timothy Zahn may have written those new books,  Filoni in his Rebels show diminished him to an easily defeated villain to prop up his heroes.
  • The Last Jedi was used in at least one main novel starring Jax Pavan,  one book series starring Ferus Olin (as The Last of the Jedi series).  And one really ancient Marvel comic issue title. Yet they took the name. How was that not confusing?
  • Battlefront had two titles and was expecting to get a third. So they ditched the third and made two more Battlefronts. EA now has a Battlefront 1 and 2 and we already had a Battlefront 1 and 2. Good luck finding tips or hints at the old game play now that the new has buried the old on the internet.

It is well known that to get rid of  a habit you have to replace it with something else. That is precisely what Disney is doing. Not just creating new canon. But literally taking the most popular famous aspects of the old and associating it with the new, in order to overwrite it and push search results for the old ones further down into the search engines.  Not just write a new story, but overwrite the old ones in a way that people will be associating it with new stories rather than originals. It’s basically stealing the ideas out of the old expanded universe and intentionally confusing people. Legends is not meant to make it easier to tell it apart, but to diminish the importance of the original expanded universe. It also overrides the old search engine results for our stories, bumping the new stuff into the top slots because its just more recent.

Now they want to rewrite Luke Skywalker as gay.  Now if they want to create new characters like that it’s one thing.  But altering the old is another matter entirely. In fact, it’s been noted in repeated interviews that Luke Skywalker is basically an alter ego fantasy version of George Lucas himself.  Not a Marty Sue mind you (for those would have no flaws) but a character who reacts certain ways, loves certain things (fast flying, as with Lucas it was fast cars) and father issues (as Lucas admits he had arguments with his dad, though obviously not as brutal!)

Unlike the Expanded Universe, they are not enhancing the saga and simply clarifying based on George Lucas’s own words and movies. They are trying to rewrite the entire meaning of the characters and it’s saga to suit their own agenda.


No one is taking your books/comics/games

Legacy 2They aren’t finishing them either. If I bought either book, comic or game for the Force Unleashed or Republic Commando I had some hope they would finish it if demand was high enough. Jaden Korr’s books pretty well ended on a mystery. Who wants to buy or read a story they KNOW will never be finished? Too late. We already bought them. We plunked down money and used time in good faith we would get an ending.

Dawn of the Jedi and Legacy 2 by Dark Horse comics were wrapped up in a hurry, clearly ground work was laid for other stories they weren’t given time to finish.

When The Clone Wars comics put Rebellion on hiatus we were told they’d come back. Instead we got Invasion. Neither was finished. But there was always the chance that those characters and situations would be returned too, eventually. While left aside by Dark Horse some time ago, the fact that it took a decade to finish Crimson Empire again suggests they would have gotten back to it if fans demanded it.

Novels written for the Expanded Universe were rewritten even if they were originally part of a series. We can’t get the last Rebellion and Empire book because Disney hijacked it and made the author rewrite the finished story to fit their canon instead of ours. Sword of the Jedi was in progress, it had been announced after years of waiting at the 2012 Star Wars Celebration.

The list of lost projects:

Jaden Korr and the secret of the Jedi clones. Starting with Crosscurrent and into Riptide, this book links a project by Grand Admiral Thrawn, with Jedi Clones and the One Sith revealed in the later Legacy comic book series. We never have the reveal of the purpose of the clones.

sword of the jediJaina Solo: the Sword of the Jedi novel trilogy was long awaited and actually announced at conventions before Disney axed it. Jaina Solo, Jag Fel and how they relate to the Fel dynasty of Imperial Knights of the Legacy comics lost it’s lead in with this. Read the Convention announcement here.

Dawn of the Jedi Comic Series: this comic book series and era was barely begun, an intriguing look into the origins of the Jedi that tied into Star Wars the Old Republic game, via the world of Tython.

Invasion Comic Series and Rebellion comic series: this comic series was set during the New Jedi Order and left unfinished. However, Crimson Empire also was left unfinished for decades. They did finish it. Invasion did not get this chance.

Republic/Imperial Commandos novel series wrap up.  Fates unknown including Kal Skirata, Dar and company were left on a cliffhanger. This was stopped short when Karen Traviss and Lucas had irreconcilable differences about his sudden desire to alter the entire Mandalorean culture, which she’d already written, in The Clone Wars. but many of us wanted it finished: her way.

Vader captured by Kota and Starkiller
Vader captured by Kota and Starkiller in The Force Unleashed 2.
This story arc was not given an ending in any media.

The Force Unleashed II Video Game, Book, Comic Series: left off with Vader a prisoner and Fett in pursuit. This was a multimedia project that ended on a cliffhanger.

Republic Commando Video Game: Ends on a cliffhanger, planned sequel was never released, possibly the aforementioned clash with the novel tie ins had something to do with that.

1313 Video Game: project in mid production to allow users to play as a bounty hunter.

Battlefront 3 video game: was also in production. Not to be mistaken for the new Battlefront, which is just a reboot with the same name. It lacks many of the features announced for the original Battlefront 3 including a story, single person player options, opportunities to play in the prequel era and space combat.

The pre prequel era (The Old Republic) is still canon.

Nope. They have claimed that too is separate canon from both, apparently to divide and conquer. It was some time before they admitted it was our canon. (Pablo Hidaglo finally admitted it in a long ago deleted tweet.)  But it isn’t part of Disney canon because it’s too tied into the expanded universe. The video games grew out of Tales of the Jedi comics, which are also referenced in the post Return of the Jedi era. The comics based on Knights of the Old Republic have tie ins, including a cross series plot called ‘Vector’ where the talisman is chased from the KOTOR series, into the Rebel era with Vader and Luke, all the way up to the Legacy era of Cade Skywalker. In fact, they probably regret locking themselves into the ‘Republic is 1000 years old’ and Hyperdrive not being that old.  By doing that they have made it harder to make off with Star Wars the Old Republic.

Instead they have tried creating the “High Republic” which may have some fans, but is nowhere as popular as the SWTOR video game. However their attempts at confusion have somewhat succeeded because people are still think it’s part of their canon. However, as I said, their own dating system says that is impossible. Even the Wookiepedia (which has gone to the dark side) carefully has a Legends label on it.

They are re canonizing some parts.

No, they are stealing some parts. They gave no credit to the makers of Quinlan Vos and Asaaj Ventress when they rewrote their story in a book. Not a peep. The whole bit in the samples of Aftermath about the reaction to the Emperor’s statue falling was already used in the X-Wing series of novels. No credit is given to the makers of that either. Aftermath also had a gift given to Leia by the ewoks, a bracelet she promptly tossed. This makes a mockery of the exact same gift and situation in Truce at Bakura. If you take it without credit, you aren’t giving a nod to or recanonizing. You are just taking. It isn’t even exhibiting common courtesy. For that matter, it’s also an insult to Leia’s character because the Leia we knew in the trilogy was far too much a Princess to throw out a gift of friendship.

Also a character without their history is not the same character. Period.  They may as well have amnesia. They may have a totally different personality and attitude because their situation and how they got their has changed. Also doing this just proves their lack of creativity.  The character will always compare unfavorably to the old one, whereas a  new one might be popular if they gave it a chance.

The movies and their novelizations are canon

Nope. The movie novelization included cut scenes and expanded scenes, as well as mentioning events in the Expanded Universe. They have been relegated Quasi Canon. This is in spite of the fact that Lucas directly talked to Terry Brooks and suggested incorporating the EU into The Phantom Menace, a trend that continued. He also edited Stover’s Revenge of the Sith novelization manuscript.

The novelizations are contradictory and prove the EU was. (The opposite of the above argument)

The novelizations of the Original Trilogy were rushed before script completion. They may not be stellar examples but they aren’t lies. Chewbacca’s costume hadn’t been finalized. Yoda’s puppet was one of the last things finished. It’s no surprise they looked different in print. Some of the complaints are even outright typos. Who deletes a whole story from canon over a misspelled word?  Even the bit about Owen being Obi-Wan’s brother in the Return of the Jedi novel has an expanded universe explanation. Look in the Jedi Apprentice series and Lone Wolf.

They needed creative freedom they can’t get with the EU in place.

They aren’t using creativity they are using a formula. Even the characters in the new Rebels show aren’t ‘new’. Zeb is basically the concept art for McQuarrie’s Chewbacca. There has already been an action figure of Kanan released that also is exactly like that concept art. (And there were already action figures based on the concept art). Both that character and his green Twilek partner are apparently based on the Coruscant Nights pair of Jax and Laranth.  As for the name Jacen, that is one of Han and Leia’s children.  Rey is an obvious rip off of Jaina Solo. Kylo Ren takes his name from Kybo Ren and his mask is a modified version of Revan. The name ‘Ben’ was actually given to Ben Skywalker in the novels, and made far more sense as he had far more impact on Luke than Leia, let alone Han. The Rebels TV show didn’t even give the movie premier its own music but instead used the Original Trilogies, not merely in places as a nod or foreshadowing but the whole thing.  Many shots are just right out of McQuarrie’s concepts, which would be okay for backgrounds as he was an expert background and tech artist. He was not an expert on people. That doesn’t stop them from using it that way anyway.

This is not creativity, its a formula to imply its connection to the Original Trilogy in marketing.  It’s not even subtle, it’s blatantly obvious.

Only the Movies make Money

Again, not true. Toys make money. They also kicked Droids/Ewoks out of the continuity, Star Wars Clone Wars micro series and the Ewok movies (and Lucas made that movie for his daughter) out. These factored into the DVD and VHS sales before them. They all had tie in products including action figures and more. The Ewok Movies also factor in as box office sales as it was released in theaters outside the US.

Action figures, vehicles and Lego sets were based on the novels, games and comics. In some cases the action figures were even packaged with the comic. These action figures are priced high on the secondary market and include characters like Bastila Shan (KOTOR), Kyle Katarn, Mara Jade and more. Trading cards, miniatures sets for games, other miniature sets, Role Playing Games and more were based on them as well. There were radio dramas created tying into some of the comic books, and Dark Forces the video games.

The other Media don’t matter so they don’t need to give credit:

Ventress - nightsister and sith candidate
Ventress, from Star Wars Republic 52: The Face of War by Dark Horse comics

Legally no, ethically yes. Ethically Aayla, Quinlan Vos and Ventress all came out of the Expanded Universe.

Onderon, Dathomir and it’s witches, Teth, Maridun and other worlds used in The Clone Wars came straight out of the Expanded Universe.

Compare that to the previous Lucasfilm writers: they often acknowledged each other’s contribution in their books. Interesting that the reprints in Trade Paperback (as opposed to mass market) have dropped those acknowledgements and left just the simple family references.

The old canon was contradictory

This whole site is set up to prove how minimal the contradictions were.

1. Infinites, Most of the Tales comics and Lego were NEVER canon. (I say most of the Tales because the last few issues they announced a change in format. They introduced new character short stories of those who would later appear in comics. Not all got the chance.

2. Many things were retconned or fixed by Lucas Licensing after the prequels. The date of the Clone Wars and the date of Anakin’s knighting were the main adjustments. There were minor adjustments to Boba Fett’s history that were originally mentioned in only one short story. It may be suspicious that the only thing Disney accepted is The Clone Wars, something that in late seasons radically altered the era.  Filoni was promptly hired to do Rebels and for the time, dropped TCW like a hot potato to play with the rebel era. As far as I can tell, the only canon he is loyal to is his own.

They are using Ralph McQuarrie’s Art

So? I love McQuarrie’s art and appreciate him, but he was a concept designer, not a storyteller. He illustrated other people’s stories. Dressing it up in eye candy does not make it a great story. Art compliments and helps tell the story. If you are focused on the art, not the characters and their adventures than there is no story.

The Expanded Universe was the first to use the ‘Lasat’ species, which they stole for Zeb in Rebels. It did not originate in Rebels, but in the West End Game Roleplaying books. The artwork for Lothal was already used in the Art of the Star Wars Galaxy for Alderaan, which included stories by regular authors like Kevin J. Anderson and went on to inspire more novels of the Expanded Universe.

Ralph McQuarrie was a great artist and without him Star Wars may never have been made. However, using his artwork long after he is gone does not justify how its being used and why. They aren’t using him because he is a great artist. They are using him to legitimize themselves.